<wetcoast> As a Canadian, I felt a bit disconnected during that last session. Nothing there for me. Maybe one day this conference will be big enough to support concurrent sessions so we can pick and choose what to go to.

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<gandrews> suggestions for next year: COMFY CHAIRS
* ahynes snaps.
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<rianders> Straps and seatbelts
<wetcoast> another suggestion for next year - sweaters or seat warmers (or warmer rooms)
<eugenechan> bean bag chairs
<rianders> yeah! bean bag chairs
<eugenechan> And 3D glasses!
* ahynes snickers
<eugenechan> Okay, I just joined Second Life, but I'm stuck in the Orientation Island. :(
<gandrews> hee
<gandrews> just fly away!
<ahynes> Read the notes there...
<ahynes> Figure out how to dress yourself and fly...
<rianders> Have you all played it?
<ahynes> I spend a bit of time there...
<gandrews> A wee bit
<gandrews> I need to get back into it
<ahynes> I am Aldon Huffhines there.
<rianders> I ended up not happy with Avatar's look. I got pretty discouraged after that.
<ahynes> I'm trying to connect... It is going slowly...
<gandrews> is there a mac client? I forget
<ahynes> I never really got my avatar to look nice..
<ahynes> My understanding is that the mac client is better than the PC client
<eugenechan> Yes, I'm on the mac client.
<gandrews> w00tnatz
<eugenechan> I look like a white guy.
<rianders> I like the mac client just need to make sure you learn the control click.
<ahynes> Me too...
<ahynes> But then again, I am a white guy.
<eugenechan> In a white shirt. :)
<gandrews> that can be changed. I look like a lopsided bowlegged gnome.
<rianders> My character has a big nose.But I really wanted to be an alien.
<ahynes> I picked up a one.org T-shirt at the U2 concert the other day.
<eugenechan> Har.
<eugenechan> Okay, must get cookie.
<ahynes> I'm in... IM me if you want a teleport to the Watershed, or send me a teleport if I should join you.
<gandrews> is there some means of downloading SL if you already have a copy elsewhere, and an account?
<rianders> Log into the second life sight and do the download from there. Should be fine.
<rianders> Big download though
<ahynes> Once you download it, you can log in with your existing account.
<gandrews> not seeing the download button for some reason
<ahynes> Lower left... simple text...
<gandrews> how helpful of them ;) thanks
<eugenechan> Yeah, send me to the Watershed. I'm "Eugevon Tao"
<eugenechan> Whoa. nauesea.
<wetcoast> am I being overly critical or is this particular panel rather irrelevant to G4C?
<ahynes> Based on how active the IRC is, SL is, and the amount of other typing, I don't think you are being particularly irrelevent.
<gandrews> I was just thinking the same thing.
<ahynes> If they were talking about how this relates to forming effective videogaming organizations, in could be relevant....
<gandrews> They're not doing a great job of generalizing from their experiences -- they're not passing on lessons, they're relating a history
<gandrews> I don't mind so much -- my brain needs a break!
<ahynes> Yeah... Me too...
<gandrews> How many people from the conference are on SL right now?
<eugenechan> It's a hard slot to fill. In general, too many speakers, not enough demos.
<ahynes> I am. I don't know if eugenechan is still on.
<gandrews> Yeah, more demos would be nice. That last panel was really good.
<eugenechan> I'm floating somewhere. :)
<ahynes> Yeah, I would like more demos...
<gandrews> More postmortems, too.
<ahynes> Actually, having a session in SL would be very cool.
<gandrews> dang I just got booted from sl it couldn't log me on
<ahynes> Actually, the community access stuff is almost relevant...
<gandrews> Trust TV and movie people to be totally narrative.
<ahynes> Community access video games...
<gandrews> What would that mean?
<ahynes> But, you need to know how to create video games...
<gandrews> That's the big issue.
<ahynes> ... that would be playable...
<gandrews> Pickup games of basketball=community access games
<eugenechan> Nice analog.
<ahynes> I really like the idea of people being able to create their own video games...
<ahynes> (these are very very early days, here...)
<ahynes> My agenda item, how do we make tools, trainings, etc, to facilitate a new generation of citizen game makers?
<gandrews> At Teachers College we have a HUGE emphasis on reducing the barriers to access
<gandrews> so we emphasize pen and paper games first
<ahynes> Provided, people can find the games you create...
<gandrews> non-digital, so people learn how to make good mechanics and don't get hung up on code
<ahynes> I would be very interested in finding out what Teacher's college's curriculum is like.
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<ahynes> Hi Ian.
<ibogost> huzzah!
<gandrews> w00t
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<gandrews> ahynes, TC has not done a great job of getting itself online
<gandrews> You should check replayable.net
<gandrews> I think that's Jess's site
<gandrews> she taught our games class this year
<gandrews> Ian, I've been meaning to ask you, what
<gandrews> 's your take on how the zeitgeist of this conference is different from earlier serious games conferences?
<ibogost> aha
<gandrews> (this is on the record for Gamasutra)
<ibogost> Well, one of my beefs with serious games in general is their loyalty to big institutions -- governments, corporations, the military
* ahynes snaps
<gandrews> Right
<ibogost> This conference and this community has the potential to break free of that, so long as they don't reattach themselves solely to the interests of foundations and other non-disinterested funding organizations.
<gandrews> Sure
<gandrews> What do you think the risks are of doing so?
<ibogost> Now, the interesting thing about Rejeski's Corporation for Public Gaming idea...
<gandrews> yeah, tell me your take on that
<ahynes> That is why I'm so interested in how we can promote citizen game makers, using open source tools, independent of the trappings of corporations, or perhaps even fundraising
<ibogost> ... is that it suggests the possibility that a group might fund games without demanding that they conform with a set of existing institutional interests.
<ibogost> But right now, from my perspective as a developer
<ibogost> it's just easier to go to private equity or my own funding, most of the time.
<ibogost> We've got a game now that the iTVS has funded, through PBS money
<gandrews> Except for how dependent on congressional and executive whims PBS has been... there's been a LOT of pressure from the Dept of Ed last year for Sesame Street and WGBH to not do things with progressive agendas... no lesbians on Postcards for Buster, for example
<ibogost> and the reason it works is that we have a tremendous amount of creative and expressive freedom
<ibogost> yes, PBS is under fire, you are right.
<gandrews> How much of a threat do you feel those kinds of vicissitudes would be? Do you think they leave us enough space to breathe?
<wetcoast> PBS is surviving in large part due to its reliance on BBC series and on endless fundraising drives. In the case of a government funding cutback to a corporation for public gaming, what would it do to survive?
<gandrews> (And those cutbacks have been threatened, I think)
<ibogost> We have enough space to breathe with iTVS, certainly
<ibogost> Right, so about the PBS thing
<ibogost> really what Rejeski means, I think
<ibogost> is that the CPB itself should fund something akin to PBS or NPR -- a game publisher
<ibogost> and they can use Internet distrib, right
<ahynes> I think that makes a lot of sense...
<eugenechan> But, CPB and PBS control the production and the distribution, right? If you open source a participatory game, you reduce the risk of both, right?
<ibogost> which almost eliminates the material costs that plague PBS and NPR
<ibogost> Well, CPB and PBS don't always control production
<gandrews> Hmm... But maybe if we made a new corporation we'd have more room... CPB and PBS are already so ossified
<ibogost> right
<ibogost> But, they have social status
<ibogost> and don't underestimate that
<gandrews> and the right knows to go looking for them when they need a whipping boy
<gandrews> that's true.
<ahynes> Hasn't American Public Radio renamed itself to American Public Media?
<eugenechan> I think a better model is like the Apache Software foundation that open sources platforms, but controls the IP.
<gandrews> Interesting.
<ahynes> ... That seems like a good move towards including games.
<ibogost> Well, there are two things you're taking about here
<ibogost> one is games, the other is tech
<eugenechan> ...
<ibogost> I think the low hanging fruit is just getting games out there
<eugenechan> yep.
<ahynes> It would seem like the model that might work best is creative commons for controlling the IP
<ibogost> I think all of that is a fine idea
<ibogost> but you don't want to limit that to social issue games
<ibogost> you want a general pool of CC or OS game IP
<ahynes> I would love to see something like blip.tv for video games...
<gandrews> I know most producers' models of user-developed content is very top-down and restrictive, except for Maxis, which works hard with users to make sure stuff is of "higher quality"
<ahynes> and yes, Ian, independent of 'social issues' the same way blip.tv is independent from social issues.
<ibogost> gotta move to make a coment
<gandrews> ok
<eugenechan> What's the diff between a "serious game" and a "game for change"?
<gandrews> Serious games include the American Army's vision of how the world should be changed ;)
<wetcoast> one definition is that a serious game's main purpose is not amusement but some ulterior purpose (though it can be fun as well.
<ahynes> Nice differentiation between independents that are trying to break into the majors and independents truly want to be independent.
<eugenechan> Is "game for change" always socially liberal or progressive?
<ibogost> ok
<gandrews> yeah nice distinction ian
<ibogost> remedial ;)
<wetcoast> doesn't have to be. just has to have a goal of trying to influence a change. also defining "liberal" and "progressive" is rather difficult.
<ahynes> heh
<ibogost> so, the way I see this issue
<eugenechan> Okay, lefty then. :)
<ibogost> is that "social change" is sort of meaningless
<ibogost> unless it means ANY kind of social change, left, right, center, pink, red, whatever
<ahynes> I don't know... I've been reading Cherry Orchard recently, with a nice distinction between change and progress
<ahynes> (independent of any thought of a progressive/liberal agenda)
<eugenechan> high heels.
<ibogost> Right, now I have a rather long argument about this :)
<ibogost> but, it's in a book that doesn't come out until March
<wetcoast> I think the usual assumption is that "change" in this context means "progressive change", but to be academically rigorous, it shouldn't be
<ahynes> entropy is change.
<ahynes> Ian, I'm very interested in your long argument...
<wetcoast> so am I. Do we have to wait for the book ;-)
<gandrews> to say "progressive" is to say "communist" in the public ear, and as Chomsky says, anti-communism is the national religion.
<gandrews> grr
<ahynes> It seems as if this is based on a hierarchical focus on the money driving things, as opposed to innovation coming from the edges.
<ibogost> ooh, drinks!
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<eugenechan> Exit stage left.
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<gandrews> was also going to say in response to that gal who said why is Rockstar not making games for change that everytime I ask big publishers why they aren't working on *educational* games at least is that they say NO we ONLY do education
<gandrews> *sigh*
<ahynes> Okay... I'm quitting for drinks...